What God? Young people loosing faith

[tbl]

In many western countries, like Australia where I live, there is a growing trend that today's youth tend to be less religious and even atheists. As a young person, I fall into the latter category (though technically I'm agnostic, but that's another story), so I can attest to this.

Why do you think this is? Is this a good thing? Are today's youth headed for Hell?

[Mitch]

Yes, this is definitely the case where I live. Most churches are getting very old, and not many young people go to the churches.
However, the church that I'm at (yes! I go to church), tries to be very youthful. I don't think it's a good thing, depending on the church. My church is very much a community, we discuss religion and spirituality (two different things!) often.
Hell? That is not something I believe in.

[Horus]

Well, I see that the generation we are in right now is a world of headstrong individuals. I admit that perhaps the generation before (my parents, perhaps my grandparents) were raised to not question their superiors and parents, but I feel that now, we're developing a huge sense of individuality.

I feel that this is both good and bad. In one, we're allowed to think for ourselves and maintain a sense of self, as well as learn our true identity during adolescence. On the flip side to that, we're beginning to listen less to our elders and as a result, we question their influence in our lives. Religion is one of these things.

I'm an agnostic at present. My stance is that I don't believe in a higher power (as I've never felt a presence or experienced an event that proves the existence of a God) but I am very willing to accept that perhaps I could be completely wrong. I think that I'm in the majority (either confusion or non-belief at all) and it's rather sad.

[tbl]

I'm an agnostic at present. My stance is that I don't believe in a higher power (as I've never felt a presence or experienced an event that proves the existence of a God) but I am very willing to accept that perhaps I could be completely wrong.
That's why I said I was technically agnostic. I don't believe in God as there is no evidence, but that doesn't mean I know God doesn't exist. But the reason why I call myself an atheist, is because the exact same thing can be said about invisible pink unicorns.

[Mitch]

Don't for get the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org/), that is classic.

[Horus]

That's why I said I was technically agnostic. I don't believe in God as there is no evidence, but that doesn't mean I know God doesn't exist. But the reason why I call myself an atheist, is because the exact same thing can be said about invisible pink unicorns.
Haha, nice. I see exactly where you're coming from.

I am also that way. I have seen people influenced by some higher power, and seen some others taken completely from a path that was leading them to self-destruction. It sounds completely cliche to have to hear that the voices in their head told them to straighten out, but how many times do you have to hear about miracles before the possibility arises that they may be real?

The way I see it, this standpoint applies to many aspects of life. There are far too many opinions to nail something down, but there's always room to accept that either of us could be horribly wrong. If I was the higher power that we speak of, I'd want to make my presence more known; I'm sure that there would be far more converts than there are right now.

[Keramac]

I am an atheist, and I'm a member of the "Young People" mentioned in the thread title. I do not believe in a god because there is simply no evidence for it, in the same way that there is no evidence of faeries or, referencing the almighty Sagan, invisible dragons. If evidence in any of these comes to light, I will gladly believe in them, but until then disbelief is the base position.

I think that there are two reasons that today's youth are becoming less religious. First, the universal rule of politics: For every trend, there is an equal or greater counter-trend. During the Cold War, the Baby Boom generation separated themselves from the "Godless" Commies by becoming more religious than would be expected, creating such movements as the "Religious Right". Just like the Boomers rebelled against the values of their parents in the '60s, my generation is rebelling against the religiosity of its parents. The other reason is that science and science education have been getting better and better. When children are taught the scientific method and how to think rationally, they often apply that to religious belief. My belief is that when logic is applied to religion, atheism is the only plausible result.

Just my two cents, but I think they are both very debatable.

[Mitch]

Yes, Very debatable Karamac.
I, myself, am not a religious person, but am not atheist. I go to a church for the friends and community, not the sermon. The church does seem to be dying off in all religions, Islam and Christianity alike. However, this has happened before and the church has recovered, it takes alot of time to take down the church and by the time it's almost down, that generation is dead and the new, maybe more religious generation takes its place.

[Ed Jones]

I'd like to reiterate Horus' point;
Well, I see that the generation we are in right now is a world of headstrong individuals.

Todays youth simply do not need religion to get by in their daily lives.

[Horus]

Aw man, been bed-ridden with flu for the last few days; it is NOT nice.

Todays youth simply do not need religion to get by in their daily lives.
And that is the unfortunate truth. The youth of today not only do not believe in things they aren't immediately affected by, they also do not need to. My question is, is this because each generation is beginning to see less of the long-term than the generation before them? This seems to hit to me as a lack of vision, and it could be getting progressively worse.

[Ed Jones]

On the other hand, perhaps the dissilusioned youth of today which i am one of is on to something. Name one war in the past 100 years or so that was not motivated by war.

It begs the question, "is spirituality important in todays society?"

[Horus]

Especially a society that is highly-driven, money-orientated, and very skin-deep.

I think the main point here is it has bred a lack of faith and a lack of acceptance that the past shapes the present and the future. I read about the Victorian Ages during school, and society was very hierarchy-based; children accepted what they were told regardless of whether or not they trusted in it. They were brought up with an iron hand, which is a stark contrast to today's values where you can sue a parent for hitting you.

Kids nowadays have it too easy.

[Lunar_fantasies]

Especially a society that is highly-driven, money-orientated, and very skin-deep.

I think the main point here is it has bred a lack of faith and a lack of acceptance that the past shapes the present and the future. I read about the Victorian Ages during school, and society was very hierarchy-based; children accepted what they were told regardless of whether or not they trusted in it. They were brought up with an iron hand, which is a stark contrast to today's values where you can sue a parent for hitting you.

Kids nowadays have it too easy.

In the Victorian age people in general were in a very bad state. Politically medically, socially, economically ect.. Children now days have the capability to think for themselves with out worrying about getting hit. Physical repression is one of the most effectives forms of repression. Now that we are told to question everything , at least more so than before, we are starting to get somewhere. In all aspects of are daily lives we are more advanced than we were in the Victorian age. To completely listen to what you are told weather you trust in it or not, is a horrible thing. being able to think is the greatest gift that the human race has.

In the Victorian age the society was more so money-oriented and skin-deep than today. The class difference was determined by money. The women wore corsets and just as much makeup if not more.

Any religion that supports the repression of thought and logic is a religion that draws back humanity.

Science is the consequence of our logic and thought and has brought us farther than any religion.

ADMIN EDIT: Please try not to double post, simply edit your previous post. Thanks

[Horus]

Lunar:

I was referring exclusively to the upbringing of children during that point. I'm aware of the objectification of women and their remarkably low view in society, but that wasn't what I was getting at. For me, lack of faith and belief comes from a high level of self, which perhaps generations before would have frowned at.

I understand your point (looking at the bigger picture) but the fact that no generations until this point are perfect is somewhat of a given.

[Keramac]

Horus, your argument is based on the idea that a strict upbringing with a strong deference for authority creates good people, and I think that it is in this that we differ. I believe that the concept of a good person should include skepticism, inquisitiveness, and curiosity. The thing is that these traits are often at odds with religion, and I think that as these traits grow, religion shrinks. And quite simply, I don't think that a religion pushed to the side because of skepticism is not worth keeping around by brainwashing children.

EDIT: I agree with you completely Lunar. Science and logic, to me at least, are more interesting, more useful, and more comforting than any religion. The reason we live in this golden age of human civilization is because science has been making steady ground against the theocratic ideals of the Dark Ages.

[Horus]

I've used history as a basis for it, Keramac. A strong upbringing and inheritance of values from an early age does not breed skepticism / inquisitiveness / curiosity, it breeds faith in elders / discipline / manners. That is something that a shrinking amount of the new generation possess. Yes, your three values are good, but so are mine. I'd say it was good to have all six really, so there should be a middle ground with the parent.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not religious. I'm happy to accept that I am wrong if something is ever proven to me (physically of course; faith is good but blind faith is not) I would still consider whether or not to be a convert. Religion isn't something I'd accept so lightly, because it is still a root of a lot of the problems we as humans face today.

[Cattraknoff]

I do not believe in the Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, or any other religious teachings. I do not follow organized religions, simply because I refuse to get my religious beliefs from the writings of another man (or woman for that matter); A person is imperfect, a person cannot comprehend the truth of creation, of "god". They cannot know what he wishes, what he finds as an insult to him (Funny that so many people have died over what a fellow person has perceived as an insult to god). One would think that this all-powerful god could decide for himself what was insulting to him, and if he was so insulted that he wished the person to die, he might smite them himself; not have some idiot do it for him. While I do not follow the major religions, and am appalled that so many people are essentially force-fed religion from birth, I will not dismiss the existence of a "god"; or rather, of a creator.

I will not tell anyone that they should believe in a creator, but I will say that dismissing the idea of one outright is as foolish as blindly following any faith. To have faith, to believe (or disbelieve) in anything, you must always question that belief, you must always ask whether you are actually right. Not simply decide that Christianity, Islam, or Atheism is your salvation, and put the question to rest. Not find one possibility and decide that you will accept it without question for the rest of your life. Many people do do this, not just with religion, but with political beliefs, and many other things. This is the primary reason for many great atrocities. The holocaust, the crusades, the inquisition, countless other religious struggles, countless senseless wars throughout Feudal Europe, the extermination of the native North American civilizations. There are many other examples to cite, caused by an inability or lack of desire to question things (far more likely the latter, or perhaps the former caused by the latter).

Accept that your beliefs, whatever they are, may be wrong (they could be correct, as well, and generally have as much value as anyone else's; Unless of course it interferes with anyone else's rights in any way. No you shouldn't be allowed to murder people because they don't follow your belief, although some religions allow for this.) Accept the possibility that you could be wrong, and never do anything against your better judgement, against your conscience, in the name of your "faith", in the name of your political beliefs.

If there were anything so truly insulting to god, if such a being exists, I would think it would be the lack of using our greatest gift, the ability to question things, the use our sense, reason, and intellect, to find truth for ourselves; the ability to defy that which we are given through heredity (be they beliefs passed down, or instincts genetically gained).

Great genius could be achieved by a great many, if only we would use that which we were given. It is the wish of those with power today to keep us from realizing this.

[Mitch]

... you must always question that belief...
Yes! That is the problem with most religious groups, they do not question anything. I am a Christian but I question everything and in my city I see many people taking the Bible quite literally (in only some parts) and it disgusts me.
I believe in evolution, not that creationism silliness, but am still a practicing Christian. I am a spiritual person and believe in healing through prayer and meditation (even if god doesn't exist, it works)

[Cattraknoff]

Yes! That is the problem with most religious groups, they do not question anything. I am a Christian but I question everything and in my city I see many people taking the Bible quite literally (in only some parts) and it disgusts me.
I believe in evolution, not that creationism silliness, but am still a practicing Christian. I am a spiritual person and believe in healing through prayer and meditation (even if god doesn't exist, it works)

Evolution has several flaws. First off, where did the original life come from? I find it highly unlikely that a couple of rocks somehow sprung to life and turned into humanity (the human brain is the most powerful computer known to us). Even the simplest forms of life are incredibly complex, require so many things to simply live, let alone reproduce. This gives credit to the idea of a creator. There is no reason evolution cannot be compatible with creationism. Even that combination will not answer everything, but in my opinion it works better than one or the other. I'm not claiming to be right, and there is perhaps the possibility that it did happen by chance; but to me, that seems unlikely and illogical. It is one of the few things that my brain, and my heart seem to agree on.

My religious/spiritual beliefs have been in a pretty fluid state throughout my existence, only fairly recently did they evolve into what they are. I also imagine that they will change again before my death, whenever it happens.

Einstein had a pretty good explanation that applies to most people. It was a comparison between him and what he saw in most of humanity, when it comes to the ways we find answers.

Most people when faced with a question, look for an answer, find it, and then live content that they've found it. Conversely, Einstein would look for an answer, find one, and then keep looking for any and all other possibilities. I try to use him as a role model for a great many things, and although I won't accept all of his ideas as absolute truth, much can be learned from him, and the way he generally thought.

Whilst he did have some prejudices as anyone else, he tried not to let them affect his judgement. He had flaws as any other person, but he was incredibly intelligent, and wise in many aspects. I believe that nearly anyone is capable of great intelligence, if they would simply question things, and always seek truth, seek answers as he did.

When it comes to the bible, or any other religious books/scripture, I believe many of them do hold truth, and hold wisdom. It is that truth that we find that will give us faith in it. But with that faith, many cease to question the rest. There is a great deal that can be learned from them, but it must not all be accepted as 100% fact, as they were written by people, and as such are as able to have been corrupted as anything else written by humans. We should never put our religious beliefs above the morals we are born with, that both logic and intuition tell are right.

[Coll]

Any religion that supports the repression of thought and logic is a religion that draws back humanity.

I agree with this point wholeheartedly, first of all. This is one of my main qualms with religion today. If there's a religion that's against learning, it should be an immediate turn off for people.

As for the point of the declining "need" of religion for the "youngsters", I think this is just bollocks, especially coming from religious leaders. The Christian faith says that you'll be rewarded in the afterlife if you're a good person. Wouldn't this make someone less moral than just having the story of the Good Samaritan and being done with it? Telling someone they'll go to hell if they're bad or heaven if they're good doesn't contribute to good morals. People should be taught to be moralistic for the sake of being a good person, a moral person. If someone is just good to go to heaven, that's not moralistic at all, it's self serving and deceptive at its core. The heaven-hell system is deeply flawed, in my opinion.

In addition to this, I've been hearing interpretations of certain Bible passages implying that people have no free will and their lives are planned out completely by the Almighty. This seems to be very prevalent in some "youth groups" I've encountered and it makes me wonder how brainwashed a child must be to believe this. All a person has to do is think for twenty seconds about the ramifications of having a heaven-hell system and total predestination. God wants John to go to Hell. God wants Paul to go to Heaven. They have no choices, just eternal suffering by the hands of a vindictive God.

I'd have no trouble believing in a religion if it had two main qualities, no religion today has number one and most have a diluted version of point two:

1. A reason to believe in this religion above any other (not because it promises me a nice mansion past the pearly gates, but a way to know that this is the right religion)
2. Free will

The answer is no, the declining power of religion is not a bad thing, people just need to become more moral. I've never shot a man or stolen money from someone, and I can name plenty of religious people who have, so it's obviously not a question of nonreligious people not being moral.

So why does the youth need a religion?

[Ed Jones]

There is a joke by Iranian/British comic Omid Djalili that states that people in the west don't need religion because they drink, take drugs, have sex and are actually quite happy.

I find it quite relevent towards this thread, if someone could find a video of it it would be great.

[Cattraknoff]

There is a joke by Iranian/British comic Omid Djalili that states that people in the west don't need religion because they drink, take drugs, have sex and are actually quite happy.

I find it quite relevent towards this thread, if someone could find a video of it it would be great.

Whilst I used to do some drugs, and drink on occasion, I've quit both. As to sex, I could live without it, but I would be happier in a relationship. Sex is not immoral, but it can lead to problems if you're an idiot about it.

I do not need religion to not do drugs and whatnot, and a lack of religion is hardly the reason most people do drugs. Many "religious" people I know do drugs, or drink at the very least, which is a drug.

They just like to take their minds off of their own massive problems with their society, religion, etc, by taking the piss on ours. Yes we both have problems, but ignoring our own and only pointing the finger at the other guy isn't going to solve any of them.

[Ed Jones]

All religion and philosophies and spiritiualty it comes from the East and we want to share it with you in the West and if we don't feel appreciated we get into a terrible mental spiral where we think why?

Because we must share spirituality with our brothers and sisters in the west.

We think well why?

Because in the West people need it.

We think well why?

Because they're unhappy.

Why?

Because in the West people drink, they take drugs, they don't care.

Why?

Because they're empty.

Why?

Because they don't have God.

Why?

Because they don't need him.

Why?

Because they're actually quite happy.

Why? Why are they happy?

Because they drink, they take drugs, they don't give a shit about anything.
Taken from "The Omid Djalili Show"

Still unable to locate a video of it.

[Cattraknoff]

I wouldn't personally equate the somewhat blissful state granted by drugs and alcohol as happiness.

But as to how they think that their religion will somehow fix the world, frankly they're sadly mistaken. Their religion is deeply flawed, and they need to realize that.

Here's an example of what I'm saying: http://www.newsobserver.com/nation_world/story/726702.html

Blind faith allows these people to justify killing women for no reason; Islam in general degrades the rights of women, and I for one think the west and even their own people should not stand for it. I don't care what their religion says, they are simply wrong. We in the west have similar troubles in other ways, which also need to be fixed as well.

[Locke]

I wouldn't personally equate the somewhat blissful state granted by drugs and alcohol as happiness.

But as to how they think that their religion will somehow fix the world, frankly they're sadly mistaken. Their religion is deeply flawed, and they need to realize that.

Here's an example of what I'm saying: http://www.newsobserver.com/nation_world/story/726702.html

Blind faith allows these people to justify killing women for no reason; Islam in general degrades the rights of women, and I for one think the west and even their own people should not stand for it. I don't care what their religion says, they are simply wrong. We in the west have similar troubles in other ways, which also need to be fixed as well.

It is rather the interpretation of the doctrine and not the religion itself that is root of these problems; however, I do not believe there has ever been a non-distorted interpretation or view of the world in religious history.

[Cattraknoff]

It is rather the interpretation of the doctrine and not the religion itself that is root of these problems; however, I do not believe there has ever been a non-distorted interpretation or view of the world in religious history.

Because they were created to be as such. Organized religion has to be one of the most catastrophic mistakes humanity has made. We need to end it; we cannot base our entire lives on a book written by a man who had his own interests at heart whilst writing it.

[Ed Jones]

Because they were created to be as such. Organized religion has to be one of the most catastrophic mistakes humanity has made. We need to end it; we cannot base our entire lives on a book written by a man who had his own interests at heart whilst writing it.

As much as i agree with that statement, i feel inclined to say there is absolutely no chance of that ever happened.

Religion, particularly in the west, has become a way of helping people cope with their daily lives. People may not be able to accept the fact that one day they will be dead, or perhaps they need someone to listen to their problems.

There are some people that genuinly believe. There is no way we can change that.

[Keramac]

The last few posts seem to ignore what I think is a main issue in this discussion: Is faith/spirituality a good thing? Well, if it makes you happy to believe things that are not based on evidence and don't infringe on the rights of others, go ahead, knock yourself out. I personally believe that an evidence based worldview allows for a happier, more intellectual and more fulfilling life, and should be shown as such. As George Bernard Shaw once said, "Saying that a religious man is happier than an atheist, is like saying that a drunk man is happier than a sober one." In other words, you may feel happier looking through the haze of religion, but it is not the same kind of self-fulfilling happiness that you get living with your head.

[Ed Jones]

Is faith/spirituality a good thing?
The consensus is largely "no"

[Cattraknoff]

As much as i agree with that statement, i feel inclined to say there is absolutely no chance of that ever happened.

Religion, particularly in the west, has become a way of helping people cope with their daily lives. People may not be able to accept the fact that one day they will be dead, or perhaps they need someone to listen to their problems.

There are some people that genuinly believe. There is no way we can change that.

Why do people think that religion is required for a belief in a higher power?

Frankly, the bible, Quoran (sp?), etc, are a load of crap. I don't really care who I offend by saying that, either. They were written by men, not god. They are at best the opinions of a few people on god. At worst they were a deliberate attempt at telling lies in order to limit peoples' freedoms, give justifications for killing people, wars, etc; as well as to generally get the general populace not to question what they're told as much.

[Locke]

Frankly, the bible, Quoran (sp?), etc, are a load of crap. I don't really care who I offend by saying that, either. They were written by men, not god. They are at best the opinions of a few people on god. At worst they were a deliberate attempt at telling lies in order to limit peoples' freedoms, give justifications for killing people, wars, etc; as well as to generally get the general populace not to question what they're told as much.

They do preach a message of peace and love; but this is largely ignored out of convenience; not to mention the inherent conflict with human nature. My take is that the genesis of these religions was spawned by the need or want to impose order by these few people. This however, has become completely irrelevant in the past couple milleniae.
I'm starting to digress here. The genesis of organized religion really doesn't have much to do with the current situation of those religions.

[Cattraknoff]

They do preach a message of peace and love; but this is largely ignored out of convenience; not to mention the inherent conflict with human nature. My take is that the genesis of these religions was spawned by the need or want to impose order by these few people. This however, has become completely irrelevant in the past couple milleniae.
I'm starting to digress here. The genesis of organized religion really doesn't have much to do with the current situation of those religions.

Christianity near its founding considered free thought as blasphemous. Islam did much of the same throughout its existence. Science has weakened the stranglehold of religion on society, but it is being replaced with our new culture that is utterly saturated with mass media and drugs. All accomplish the same thing, they make it so we don't have to do any thinking for ourselves. I see no reason why religion should be required to believe in god, although my Christian friend constantly tells me that it is. He tells me that I would not have come to believe in god through science alone, through simply asking questions. No, I needed the bible to give me the "idea" of god, right?

Right...?

Heaven forbid we try to find the answers using our own sense, reason, and intellect. God forbid we use the gifts he supposedly gave us, rather than looking for an easy answer in a book which, whether originally, or as a result of abuse, is corrupted by the ambitions of men.

[Locke]

Christianity near its founding considered free thought as blasphemous. Islam did much of the same throughout its existence. Science has weakened the stranglehold of religion on society, but it is being replaced with our new culture that is utterly saturated with mass media and drugs. All accomplish the same thing, they make it so we don't have to do any thinking for ourselves. I see no reason why religion should be required to believe in god, although my Christian friend constantly tells me that it is. He tells me that I would not have come to believe in god through science alone, through simply asking questions. No, I needed the bible to give me the "idea" of god, right?

Right...?

Heaven forbid we try to find the answers using our own sense, reason, and intellect. God forbid we use the gifts he supposedly gave us, rather than looking for an easy answer in a book which, whether originally, or as a result of abuse, is corrupted by the ambitions of men.
I agree wholeheartedly!
It could be that I have distorted religion into something nice and fluffy.

[lotusengineer]

Happy New Year!!

Its a very good thing religion is going the way of the Edsel!!!

The last twenty years so-called ministers and imams have been preaching a God few know, what to know or understand. Religion is destroying itself...Good riddance

[Cattraknoff]

Happy New Year!!

Its a very good thing religion is going the way of the Edsel!!!

The last twenty years so-called ministers and imams have been preaching a God few know, what to know or understand. Religion is destroying itself...Good riddance

Organized religion is the only thing I have a problem with. Spirituality can be and is quite beneficial. The problem is that (most) people seem to think the latter must be accompanied by the former.

[Locke]

Organized religion is the only thing I have a problem with. Spirituality can be and is quite beneficial. The problem is that (most) people seem to think the latter must be accompanied by the former.

To speak in purely theological terms (I'm mortified, but here goes):
If such an entitity, or energy, or matter that would fit the role that we have subscribed to "God" existed, it would not be something that we could adequately comprehend, and therefore not some supernormal man who regularly interferes on Earth (and then suddenly ceases to do so at the genesis of science), contradicts himself many times over and kills thousands of people at whim.
If, as our minds would lead us to believe, there is an entity of that sort, then why do we believe that it is a cognitive being who resides in real-time and occupies some never-'forseen alter-world?
My own spirituality resides on the belief that God is Energy.

[Ed Jones]

It is of my humble opinion that we need a few religious fanatics to assist in this debate. We don't seem to be hearing (or seeing) the full debate here, with a forum full of atheists.

Someone get Osama on the blower

[Cattraknoff]

It is of my humble opinion that we need a few religious fanatics to assist in this debate. We don't seem to be hearing (or seeing) the full debate here, with a forum full of athiests.

Someone get Osama on the blower

I'm not an atheist.

I simply use my own intelligence to come up with my beliefs, rather than a book written by another man. I'm not trusting of the motives of men, rightly so in my opinion.

[Ed Jones]

atheism [ey-thee-iz-uhm]
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

I do not believe in the Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, or any other religious teachings.

Sounds pretty accurate to me.

[Locke]

Sounds pretty accurate to me.

There's a difference between spirituality and organized religion.
Those of us autonomous enough usually deem ourselves the former.
I do not believe in the Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, or any other religious teachings.
I must point out that some of these teachings are complicit with your beliefs, to an extent. To quote a Buddhist saying (which can not aptly be described as a religion): Water is round in a round pot, water is square in a square pot. But people often forget water has no form at all.
While religion as an institution may have brought strife and suffering over the millenia in which it has presided, it cannot be said that hard-line atheism-based institutions or rules have been any less depraved (I am aware you are not a hard line atheist.) It's simply humans that have comandeered the beliefs or non-beliefs to best serve their interests.
I think, as is appropriate in all things, a middle road would be most desirable, spirituality without religion. Religion simply makes it too easy for humans of great weakness or great strength to justify their actions and further their interests without question.

[Cattraknoff]

Sounds pretty accurate to me.

The fact that I don't follow any religion doesn't make me an atheist.

I do believe in a god, or higher power. However I refuse to accept anyone else's interpretations of God as absolute truth. I refuse to get my beliefs on the subject from a book which was written by a person, simply because there is no way any person can comprehend exactly what god is, or what he expects from us, if anything. I refuse to base my very life on this interpretation, as I view doing so as nothing less than giving up my freedoms of thought, and action.

[Ed Jones]

Thanks for clearing that up. I've felt that you're position in regards to religion has been somewhat ambiguous until now.

As for my statement, it's still relevent. We've heard a great deal of anti-religious arguments. It would be useful to hear some pro-organised religion arguments from people who practise them.

[Cattraknoff]

Thanks for clearing that up. I've felt that you're position in regards to religion has been somewhat ambiguous until now.

As for my statement, it's still relevent. We've heard a great deal of anti-religious arguments. It would be useful to hear some pro-organised religion arguments from people who practise them.

Prometheus is a catholic or christian of some sort.

[Prometheus]

I am, I suppose, Protestant if I have to be classified. I believe in the Bible, not the church.

Unlike Cattraknoff, I am more willing to accept another person's idea. However I don't just pick a random book or idea and say that's what I believe. I believe what makes sense. Catt believes the Bible was written by man alone. I believe it was written by God through man. That is the root of our religious differences. Unfortunately that root branches off in to damn near every part of each of our world views...

As I said though, I don't believe in the church, especially the Catholic church. They are made up of false ideas, and as we all know from history, are known to lie. Sadly many of those who claim to be Christian, do not know what it really means. They believe the lies of the church, or the lies of our corrupt culture and State. It appears that some think Christianity is false based on history (the lies, the crusades, etc). I would like to point out that any system run by humans tends to decay and become corrupted. Don't let the institutions that be change your opinion. Like the United States, it started with a good idea and freedom. Since it's run by humanity, obviously it's bound to failure in the long run. Democracy and freedom is still good, it's just that people mess things up. So anyway, you might say I am anti-organized religion, but you might say I am pro-organized religion.

Bottom line, I believe what makes sense, and it happens that what I believe is a part of one of the more popular religions.

I really didn't intend this post to be this long, in fact I never wanted to post about religion at all. Oh well.

[Mitch]

That's why Christianity should be run by Rabbits! (Referencing South Park Episode ;))

I believe that many, if not all, large, religious organisations are corrupt in one way or another. Even though the DaVinci Code is fiction, it is a metaphor of how religion and lies are corrupting the people.
That is the problem with the Catholic tradition I believe. It is much too large a group of people and easily corrupted. That is why I prefer the Protestant traditions, because there are SO MANY different groups.
In Calgary, I am a member of a very liberal, if not socialist, church group (The United Church of Canada). While, almost next door, there is 'Center Street Church', which takes up two massive buildings, very conservative, and I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of my city goes to that church. With these smaller religious organisations, there is less room for corruption.

I think the United States is becoming very corrupt, most governments are, but I believe this will become severe if it continues the way it is. Religion is too far attached to the US government as far as I'm concerned. Even "In God We Trust" written on all US currency, makes me cringe. Rudy Giuliani talking about how religious he is, and campaigning in churches makes me almost want to throw up.

[Ed Jones]

BH post reminds me of a quotation by Machiavelli.

If our religion claims of us fortitude of soul, it is more to enable us to suffer than to achieve great deeds.

These principles seem to me to have made men feeble, and caused them to become an easy prey to evil-minded men, who can control them more securely, seeing that the great body of men, for the sake of gaining paradise, are more disposed to endure injuries than to avenge them. - Niccoló Machiavelli, The Discourses. 1517.

[Prometheus]

That's why Christianity should be run by Rabbits! (Referencing South Park Episode ;))

Ha, I've seen that one. I realized what you were referring to before you said it.

I believe that many, if not all, large, religious organisations are corrupt in one way or another. Even though the DaVinci Code is fiction, it is a metaphor of how religion and lies are corrupting the people.
That is the problem with the Catholic tradition I believe. It is much too large a group of people and easily corrupted. That is why I prefer the Protestant traditions, because there are SO MANY different groups.
In Calgary, I am a member of a very liberal, if not socialist, church group (The United Church of Canada). While, almost next door, there is 'Center Street Church', which takes up two massive buildings, very conservative, and I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of my city goes to that church. With these smaller religious organisations, there is less room for corruption.

I think the United States is becoming very corrupt, most governments are, but I believe this will become severe if it continues the way it is. Religion is too far attached to the US government as far as I'm concerned. Even "In God We Trust" written on all US currency, makes me cringe. Rudy Giuliani talking about how religious he is, and campaigning in churches makes me almost want to throw up.

Unfortunately for Liberals our system and Christianity go hand-in-hand. Without Christian morals (which promotes trust, kindness, truthfulness, honesty, etc) are what held this country together. There have always been untrustworthy people in the world, it's just that America was far more in to the Christian ideas before. The 20th century was the start of a massive moral decline, thus nobody trusts each other, government is growing rapidly, and paranoia is rampant.

[Cattraknoff]

Ha, I've seen that one. I realized what you were referring to before you said it.



Unfortunately for Liberals our system and Christianity go hand-in-hand. Without Christian morals (which promotes trust, kindness, truthfulness, honesty, etc) are what held this country together. There have always been untrustworthy people in the world, it's just that America was far more in to the Christian ideas before. The 20th century was the start of a massive moral decline, thus nobody trusts each other, government is growing rapidly, and paranoia is rampant.

Morals need not be based on religion, there is a very good quote that applies:

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

[ShadyPolitics]

The reason young people are not getting involved in religion is because they are more intelligent and courious. They are more rational then the earlier generations and they are not afraid to question what they are told. The truth is, the majority of Christians who attend church don't even believe in God or the bible, they just think that they do. If someone truly believed in the bible, they would not fear death and they would strictly follow the teachings. People of religion simply fear external condemnation in hell so they result to worshiping something that they are not certain of.

If Heaven exist, the so called "non believers" will be the first ones walking into the pearly gates. I would imagine that God would give salvation to a rational person who refused to live a lie based on fear, then a person pressured by the fear of burning in hell forever and forever and forever. But, the way I see it is like this. The so called "men of the colth" was born exactly like everyone else. They were born with no knowledge of God or religion....they were taught to believe in religion by their parents, just as their parent were taught to believe in religion by their parents. They know no more then what they read in the bible yet they don't even know the origins of the bible. When you ask "men of the colth" a question that they are unable to answer or uncertain of....they establish the belief that such questions shouldnt be asked and that God condemns it.

[eharvester]

In many western countries, like Australia where I live, there is a growing trend that today's youth tend to be less religious and even atheists. As a young person, I fall into the latter category (though technically I'm agnostic, but that's another story), so I can attest to this.

Why do you think this is? Is this a good thing? Are today's youth headed for Hell?

It's the free market of religion, and god is becoming less and less competitive ;)

[Cattraknoff]

The reason young people are not getting involved in religion is because they are more intelligent and courious. They are more rational then the earlier generations and they are not afraid to question what they are told. The truth is, the majority of Christians who attend church don't even believe in God or the bible, they just think that they do. If someone truly believed in the bible, they would not fear death and they would strictly follow the teachings. People of religion simply fear external condemnation in hell so they result to worshiping something that they are not certain of.

If Heaven exist, the so called "non believers" will be the first ones walking into the pearly gates. I would imagine that God would give salvation to a rational person who refused to live a lie based on fear, then a person pressured by the fear of burning in hell forever and forever and forever. But, the way I see it is like this. The so called "men of the colth" was born exactly like everyone else. They were born with no knowledge of God or religion....they were taught to believe in religion by their parents, just as their parent were taught to believe in religion by their parents. They know no more then what they read in the bible yet they don't even know the origins of the bible. When you ask "men of the colth" a question that they are unable to answer or uncertain of....they establish the belief that such questions shouldnt be asked and that God condemns it.

The young are not more intelligent and more curious, really. Drugs, TV, video games, the pursuit of meaningless sex, etc. have destroyed much hope of any intelligence they might achieve. The average IQ rating (not the final say in intelligence, I'm aware) in most even developed countries is still quite low (generally ~100). We've for the most part been distracted by useless activities, that go a long way to making us idiots. While in the past religion was the primary way to make us stop questioning, fear of eternal torment has lost its appeal due to the fact that today's society loves instant gratification as it does; We live only in the here and now, few care about the future.

Our new methods I would say are even better than religion. We question things less now because it is a lot more entertaining not to. We rely on these things to entertain us, when they require no thought or effort of any form. As children people are more than capable of enjoying themselves without TV, without drugs, and all this other garbage. But that is lost at some point, as most of us do give in to one of them or the other. An intelligent person is never bored, even without TV or anything else, simply because their own thoughts can keep them occupied. Most people seem to think it's somehow "wrong" when their brains turn on for any extended period of time. Today's new atheists are as bad as, if not worse than the ignorant Christians of old.

[ShadyPolitics]

The young are not more intelligent and more curious, really. Drugs, TV, video games, the pursuit of meaningless sex, etc. have destroyed much hope of any intelligence they might achieve. The average IQ rating (not the final say in intelligence, I'm aware) in most even developed countries is still quite low (generally ~100). We've for the most part been distracted by useless activities, that go a long way to making us idiots. While in the past religion was the primary way to make us stop questioning, fear of eternal torment has lost its appeal due to the fact that today's society loves instant gratification as it does; We live only in the here and now, few care about the future.

Our new methods I would say are even better than religion. We question things less now because it is a lot more entertaining not to. We rely on these things to entertain us, when they require no thought or effort of any form. As children people are more than capable of enjoying themselves without TV, without drugs, and all this other garbage. But that is lost at some point, as most of us do give in to one of them or the other. An intelligent person is never bored, even without TV or anything else, simply because their own thoughts can keep them occupied. Most people seem to think it's somehow "wrong" when their brains turn on for any extended period of time. Today's new atheists are as bad as, if not worse than the ignorant Christians of old.

Yes, the young are more intelligent. Compare what is being taught in school today to what was taught in schools 50-100 years ago. A large majority of parents don't even understand Algebra, which is the first stage of math in high school. What were children in high school taught back then? Probably just basic math and reading. Comparing IQs are not legitimate ether, since IQ standards were much lower 50-100 years ago for high school students.

Lets not speak as if drugs and meaningless sex have just begun in this generation. It has been going on for 100's if not 1000's of years. Lets not even begin to try and use video games and television to cover up the last generation lack of parenting skills ethier. In fact, the television affects mid-age people more then it does teens. These middle age women watch Oprah and Dr.Phil all day, and then resort to raising their children how Oprah tells them, not taking into account that Oprah has never raised children. Next thing you know, they are injecting Botox into their face and getting breast implants.

[Locke]

Yes, the young are more intelligent. Compare what is being taught in school today to what was taught in schools 50-100 years ago. A large majority of parents don't even understand Algebra, which is the first stage of math in high school. What were children in high school taught back then? Probably just basic math and reading. Comparing IQs are not legitimate ether, since IQ standards were much lower 50-100 years ago for high school students.

Lets not speak as if drugs and meaningless sex have just begun in this generation. It has been going on for 100's if not 1000's of years. Lets not even begin to try and use video games and television to cover up the last generation lack of parenting skills ethier. In fact, the television affects mid-age people more then it does teens. These middle age women watch Oprah and Dr.Phil all day, and then resort to raising their children how Oprah tells them, not taking into account that Oprah has never raised children. Next thing you know, they are injecting Botox into their face and getting breast implants.

We've devolved into a about generational relativity. The ignorance of our current generation only appears to be so, because we have no relative point of comparison. We possess coloured history books, documentaries of major occurences throughout the ages; none of these are focused on archetypal people of the day, because the creators themselves do not have the means of comparison.
You state that the ways of living that "middle-agers" choose are decadent, and expound that the current generation is obviously much more lucid to the cares of the day. However, one generation is raised by the last; such traits of living are passed on and we stagnate as a society.

[Cattraknoff]

Yes, the young are more intelligent. Compare what is being taught in school today to what was taught in schools 50-100 years ago. A large majority of parents don't even understand Algebra, which is the first stage of math in high school. What were children in high school taught back then? Probably just basic math and reading. Comparing IQs are not legitimate ether, since IQ standards were much lower 50-100 years ago for high school students.

Lets not speak as if drugs and meaningless sex have just begun in this generation. It has been going on for 100's if not 1000's of years. Lets not even begin to try and use video games and television to cover up the last generation lack of parenting skills ethier. In fact, the television affects mid-age people more then it does teens. These middle age women watch Oprah and Dr.Phil all day, and then resort to raising their children how Oprah tells them, not taking into account that Oprah has never raised children. Next thing you know, they are injecting Botox into their face and getting breast implants.

We may be better at math, but the younger generation are still lacking in any "common" sense. Still as easily manipulated, still as foolish. Quite willing to be ignorant as well, it seems.

[Ed Jones]

We may be better at math, but the younger generation are still lacking in any "common" sense. Still as easily manipulated, still as foolish. Quite willing to be ignorant as well, it seems.

I'm afraid i'll have to agree with Catt (there's a first time for everything):D. Key word being "still" of course.

Personally, i don't think people were all that bright to begin with.

[Locke]

I'm afraid i'll have to agree with Catt (there's a first time for everything):D. Key word being "still" of course.

Personally, i don't think people were all that bright to begin with.

Well, the concept of "bright" is that of being more intelligent than others. In that sense, there will never be a bright populace, and certain people will continue to exploit.

[Cattraknoff]

Well, the concept of "bright" is that of being more intelligent than others. In that sense, there will never be a bright populace, and certain people will continue to exploit.

How about one that isn't completely brain dead?

[Locke]

How about one that isn't completely brain dead?

Imagine if as a society, the average IQ was somewhere around 150 (relative to our terms). As social structures and ideas would be so much more complex, those with duller intellects would still be as confused about the world. Individuals of quicker wit would learn to exploit, as always.

[Cattraknoff]

Imagine if as a society, the average IQ was somewhere around 150 (relative to our terms). As social structures and ideas would be so much more complex, those with duller intellects would still be as confused about the world. Individuals of quicker wit would learn to exploit, as always.

After a certain point it becomes much more difficult to tell completely ridiculous lies to a person and have them believed. Improved logical skills, and the ability of the people to reason on their own, should significantly reduce, if not eliminate, the confusion.

People of intelligence understand the necessity to pay attention to the world around them. The question is whether that intelligence itself can be taught to the general populace.

[Locke]

After a certain point it becomes much more difficult to tell completely ridiculous lies to a person and have them believed. Improved logical skills, and the ability of the people to reason on their own, should significantly reduce, if not eliminate, the confusion.

People of intelligence understand the necessity to pay attention to the world around them. The question is whether that intelligence itself can be taught to the general populace.

I think, in essence, that true democracy realistically achieves this goal. Individual votes are, for the most part, symbolic in the sense that one vote will not affect the outcome (discounting in this argument collective bodies). However, it gives a sense of personal power and further interests the individual in affecting the world around him/her. What we have in most democracies, though, is the corporatization (or nationalisation, in certain instances) and resulting failed role of the media. Thus people are not concerned with voting in the first place, or when they do they are drastically under-informed.

[Cattraknoff]

I think, in essence, that true democracy realistically achieves this goal. Individual votes are, for the most part, symbolic in the sense that one vote will not affect the outcome (discounting in this argument collective bodies). However, it gives a sense of personal power and further interests the individual in affecting the world around him/her. What we have in most democracies, though, is the corporatization (or nationalisation, in certain instances) and resulting failed role of the media. Thus people are not concerned with voting in the first place, or when they do they are drastically under-informed.

My hope is that removing these factors would actually solve the problem.

[Locke]

My hope is that removing these factors would actually solve the problem.

What is your proposed paradigm?

[guardaka]

I totally respect your opinions! and it's true people today don't believe in anything they can't not see! however, That's why it's faith! Also, my opinion is that there God is real and I do believe but, I'm just going to throw out a question and if it's answered then that's fine and if it's not then that's fine also..What if their is a God and most of the people out their that don't believe end up running out of time?? My thing is yeah you can live without believing But, can you die without believing!!! Believing in God does not mean you can't have fun. If you read the bible it talks about loveing one another..It also says do not steal..do not commit adultry...I mean these are things that you know you shouldn't do regardless if you believe in God or don't...These are things that are just right...It doesn't say you can't drink, it says you can't get drunk! That's it for right now..

[Locke]

My opposition to Chiristianity doesn't stem from the personal effects if would have on me if I was of the faith. My problem with it is that it is extremely dogmatic, and imbued with a certain superiority complex (as are most religions, yet these traits led the Church to be particularly violent for a long period of time.) Ecclesiastical influence was huge in the era or colonialism, and the dogmatic creeds it preached were essential to the brutality (otherwise, I doubt that the European countries could have relieved their conscience).

[Cattraknoff]

I totally respect your opinions! and it's true people today don't believe in anything they can't not see! however, That's why it's faith! Also, my opinion is that there God is real and I do believe but, I'm just going to throw out a question and if it's answered then that's fine and if it's not then that's fine also..What if their is a God and most of the people out their that don't believe end up running out of time?? My thing is yeah you can live without believing But, can you die without believing!!! Believing in God does not mean you can't have fun. If you read the bible it talks about loveing one another..It also says do not steal..do not commit adultry...I mean these are things that you know you shouldn't do regardless if you believe in God or don't...These are things that are just right...It doesn't say you can't drink, it says you can't get drunk! That's it for right now..

I do not need to drink to have fun.

My opposition to religion stems from the fact that it shuns intelligent and free thought. Not openly nor blatantly mind you, but it does it all the same, and it is largely responsible for many of the problems facing our world today.

I can believe in God without the bible, thank you. I will take no man's word about God over my own thoughts. And yes, I know I shouldn't steal except in certain instances where it might be justified. I also know I should not kill except in certain instances where it might be. Adultery is a somewhat different matter, although I would choose not to commit such (where many do not do the same mind you, even Christians). Religion has been used as an excuse to commit the very sins which they supposedly do not allow all too often. I do not need religion to give me my moral values; my own compassion, my own thoughts brought me to them.

Some religions you might say are compatible with many of my beliefs, and I couldn't argue with that. But that alone is not reason to follow them. I cannot, after seeing how it has been corrupted as it has, after seeing the lengths men go to to achieve power over others, follow a faith that has certainly been influenced by them.

[Coll]

My idea has always been, if I were born in Indonesia, would the "tugging in my heart" be God or Allah? Or if I was born in Bangladesh would I be feeling Kharma working in me?

What makes any one religion more "right" than another? People always make the same claims about how their god is working in them and creating miracles, and yet, have nothing to show. How about getting God to send you some Heaven postcard? I'd be willing to acknowledge that miracle.

[brookes]

I do agree to the fact that todays young people are not religious in the sense that they don't attend church every Sunday or follow the ritual. But i don't think they lost faith in god. Even religions have to adapt to this new situation, if not they will be wiped out.

[Cattraknoff]

I do agree to the fact that todays young people are not religious in the sense that they don't attend church every Sunday or follow the ritual. But i don't think they lost faith in god. Even religions have to adapt to this new situation, if not they will be wiped out.

They've succumbed to selfish greed, short-sightedness, and indulgence in whatever pleases their senses at the time. They've accepted ignorance, and follow more or less anything blindly. They've forsaken thought, which is God's greatest gift to humanity, if there is indeed a God. I'm fairly certain that this was not the intended path. I'm also fairly certain that blindly following any faith was not the intended path.

[hideip]

I think its up to people parents to guide them. You cannot blame the kids entirely if the parents are not doing anything about the situation.

[Gwendl]

This very discussion is really at the heart of a lot of the lost interest in religion. It shows that people don't have to walk in lockstep, can have different opinions about religion without being persecuted for it. Back in the old days, you were considered a heretic for saying anything bad about the church and it's teaching. Nowadays, the youth of the information age can make their own decisions based on both sides of the argument, not just one side.

[lihen]

Today young people have a mentality that what you have is what you have earned , and i think it's true , what god symbolises is the ability inside yourself to earn what ever inside you.
I am not against any religion or in fact god, but it' my personal point of view that GOD don't exist anywhere but it is you who is himself god

[Cattraknoff]

This very discussion is really at the heart of a lot of the lost interest in religion. It shows that people don't have to walk in lockstep, can have different opinions about religion without being persecuted for it. Back in the old days, you were considered a heretic for saying anything bad about the church and it's teaching. Nowadays, the youth of the information age can make their own decisions based on both sides of the argument, not just one side.

But they generally go with whatever sounds nicest to them, not what necessarily sounds true. And after they've found their salvation, they need not look further. Perhaps you're right in that they "can" look at both sides of the argument, but you should also take into account that most don't care enough to do so. Most of today's youth are lazy, focused on instant-gratification, not actually spending a great deal of time for something they can't see immediate gain from.

[Locke]

But they generally go with whatever sounds nicest to them, not what necessarily sounds true. And after they've found their salvation, they need not look further. Perhaps you're right in that they "can" look at both sides of the argument, but you should also take into account that most don't care enough to do so. Most of today's youth are lazy, focused on instant-gratification, not actually spending a great deal of time for something they can't see immediate gain from.

And that is their right! Only they themselves have the right to discover the peculiarities of life as they perambulate the frontiers of destruction! What the past generation advises is archaic, inapplicable in today's world.

[oboehart]

I think the youth of today are becoming increasingly less religious, simply because their parents are becoming less religious. Earlier in this topic, I read someone say the exact opposite...that youth are becoming less religious, to move away from what their parents and grandparents did (a kind of rebellion.)
I think that the entire society, not just youth, are beginning to lose interest in religion. Not morals, or beliefs, or even spirituality. I know many people my age that have created their own personal beliefs. They just don't involve going to church every Sunday, and listening to someone tell you that God forgives you for all of your sins...I just don't think it's appealing to the new generation that didn't grow up with it.

[Cattraknoff]

I think the youth of today are becoming increasingly less religious, simply because their parents are becoming less religious. Earlier in this topic, I read someone say the exact opposite...that youth are becoming less religious, to move away from what their parents and grandparents did (a kind of rebellion.)
I think that the entire society, not just youth, are beginning to lose interest in religion. Not morals, or beliefs, or even spirituality. I know many people my age that have created their own personal beliefs. They just don't involve going to church every Sunday, and listening to someone tell you that God forgives you for all of your sins...I just don't think it's appealing to the new generation that didn't grow up with it.

Which is why we now have TV shows and drugs to keep us stupid, rather than religion.

[Locke]

I think the youth of today are becoming increasingly less religious, simply because their parents are becoming less religious. Earlier in this topic, I read someone say the exact opposite...that youth are becoming less religious, to move away from what their parents and grandparents did (a kind of rebellion.)
I think that the entire society, not just youth, are beginning to lose interest in religion. Not morals, or beliefs, or even spirituality. I know many people my age that have created their own personal beliefs. They just don't involve going to church every Sunday, and listening to someone tell you that God forgives you for all of your sins...I just don't think it's appealing to the new generation that didn't grow up with it.

Yes, religious power has been mitigated somewhat, and the youth are effectuating a "rebellion", but the only objective towards which the majority strive is idiocy. One could say we were better off with nearly-ubiquitous religious hierarchies, as they, despite their interpretation, encouraged community.